Les Schuchardt Auction-Early Brass Fords and More..

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Model T Ford Club International User Forum: MTFCI General Discussion Forum : Les Schuchardt Auction-Early Brass Fords and More..
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Yvette VanDerBrink on Wednesday, February 08, 2012 - 2:16 pm:

Les Schuchardt and his wife will be auctioning their fabulous collection of Collector Vehicles including several RARE Ford AC Cars, Early T's and other early Letter Fords 9-15-2012 in Spearfish, SD. All NO Reserve and No Buyer's Premium. Plan now to attend this auction 9-15-2012. For more info www.vanderbrink auctions.com or 605-201-7005
Thank You- See you there!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan Treace on Wednesday, February 08, 2012 - 9:03 pm:

Les has some rather neat things there too, visited during Int'l club T tour 2010 and his place was one of the stops. Some pictures of the place.

He was gracious to host an afternoon to allow everyone to walk around and look at his neat T stuff and more, the home is loaded with antiques too.














Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Eubanks on Thursday, February 09, 2012 - 10:39 am:

A really geat collection of cars and parts and even the not available stuff for display I saw thru the cracks in the wall of his barn.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield, KS on Thursday, February 09, 2012 - 11:15 pm:

If Yvette follows her M.O. from the Edmiston sale, an alert shopper can come away with some steals.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rob Maasch on Thursday, February 09, 2012 - 11:33 pm:

Dan, is that a picture of the single casted engine (no removable head)? Someone said Ford wasn't sure they were going to be able to attach a separate head, so they produced some in one piece.

That is a keeper!! Any tours out that way in September or better to bring a empty trailer.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker on Sunday, February 12, 2012 - 8:07 pm:

Rob,

Im 100% sure that the Model N, R, S, & SR engine shown as the center engine in the earlier photo is a prototype engine that Ford used to test the concept of the removable cylinder head. You can see that the cylinder head crosses all four cylinders -- while the standard cast in pairs cyclinders have a very small gap between the fixed heads.



The removable cylinder head was one of the features that made the Model T such a success. Ford went to that design to reduce cost (that was normally the reason he did most things but he also tried to make sure the parts were durable. In the case of the 1909-12 pressed steel axle housing it saved money on initial production cost but was ultimately replaced with a modified 1906-1908 N, R, S, & SR style rear axle housing in 1915 and continued to the end of production with running changes.) Ford could machine the block at a great savings because the head was removable and the machining process was simplified and automated. The N, R, S, & SR had removable screw in plugs above the valves so the valve faces could be machined and the valves installed.

If Ford only made 1 prototype N, R, S, & SR removable cylinder head experimental engine then it would be the same one #2552 shown below (note the engine stand is the same as the two N,R,S & SR engines in the photo and the Model N engine on display at the Henry Ford Museum).





But the crankcase that has the engine number can be removed from the cylinders (both those cast in pairs as well as the ones for the single cylinder head) so it is not like the Model T where the serial number stays with the engine block -- but rather with the crankcase.

Note the engine closest to the photographer is a stock N, R, S, & SR engine but has a prototype transmission housing much more enclosed than the standard N, R, S, & SR but still much more open than the T design.

Im 80% sure that I read that a prototype engine was obtained by the Early Ford Registry for display at the Piquette Ford Plant. But when I went to find some information about that I did not find it. For sure displaying the prototype engine at the Piquette Plant would be one appropriate place for it to go. Anyone else have information on how many prototype engines were produced and how many are known to still be in existence?

A short paragraph from page 138 of Stern's "Tin Lizzie" taken from the oral history give by Joseph Galamb back in the 1950s.



Note the engine closest to the photographer is a stock N, R, S, & SR engine but has a prototype transmission housing much more enclosed than the standard N, R, S, & SR but still much more open than the T design.

Im 80% sure that I read that a prototype engine was obtained by the Early Ford Registry for display at the Piquette Ford Plant. But when I went to find some information about that I did not find it. The Piquette Plant would be one location very appropriate to display a prototype engine. Does anyone else have information on how many prototype engines based on the N, R, S, & SR crankcase with removable heads were produced and how many are known to still be in existence?

It should be a fantastic auction.

Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 cut off


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jerry VanOoteghem on Monday, February 13, 2012 - 1:03 pm:

Hap,

Thanks for the photos.

The two engines, the removable head prototype & the prototype NRS engine, now belong to me and my friend Norm. They were purchased from Les about a year ago, with the promise that they will be on long-term loan to the Piquette Plant museum in Detroit, where they now reside.

The removable head engine is most likely Ford's first ever.

The NRS engine doesn't just differ in the design of the transmission frame. While everything looks like a stock engine, almost every part is different. For instance, the crankcase has no breather vent hole and no oil troughs in the bottom. In fact, it's not even a real engine. There are no pistons, the "crankshaft" is a straight piece of barstock, the "valves" are just hex head bolt blanks with no threads dropped in through the top, the camshaft is very crudely milled to only resemble a cam, there is no square hole in the transmission output shaft and I'm not even sure there are gears in the transmission. In short, the engine is a mock-up used by Ford in designing the Model N engine. It's a pre-Model N concept study. It has been stated, by Galamb I believe, that Henry didn't like drawings. He wanted a physical, tangible object to view and study. This engine mock-up was just such a thing, a concept model for Henry and his design team.

We cleaned the engines very carefully so as not to remove any "finish" but only to remove the accumulated dirt of 100+ years. We also only disassembled as much as needed for the cleaning process, returning each bolt to its former location. I don't know what's in the transmission because we didn't want to "violate" it to that extent. There were some missing bolts and some that were clearly not period correct. Missing and incorrect bolts were replaced with exact reproductions of the correct examples still with the engine. Les had added manifolds, oilers and a coil box to the engines when he got them. We removed the oilers & coil box as very early photos of these engines showed none. We kept the manifolds in place however.

I should add here that the early Ford hobby owes a huge thank you to Les Schuchardt and his good pal Cecil Ralston for recognizing the importance of these two engines and rescuing them for future hobbyists and historians to study. It was only because they would be on display at Piquette that Les even considered selling them.

If you have any questions please ask. Better yet, come see them when the Piquette Plant opens for the season in May.


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